Tuesday, February 19, 2013

Paraves existed at the same time as the earliest coelurosaur dinosaurs

Note that Paraves (Eumaniraptora) existed at the same time as the earliest coelurosaur dinosaurs. Paraves were primitive birds with pennaceous feathers. Paraves could not have descended from coelurosaur dinosaurs.
(Click to enlarge).

Note Eumaniraptora in the chart above. It is on the far right. You can see that it extends back to the time of the very earliest found coelurosaur dinosaurs.


  1. Actually it does not. The earliest found dinosaurs date to the Triassic.

    1. If you would like to comment could you please use a made-up name. If you do respond, could you please give us a reference for your assertion please?

  2. Well, the reference is your own chart. It shows Eumaniraptora appearing earlier than the 175 mya mark. Dinosaurs, on the other hand, exist since the Triassic as the wiki entry says.


    "Dinosaurs are a diverse group of animals of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, approximately 230 million years ago"

  3. Which group of dinosaurs did birds evolve from?

  4. I would appreciate it if you didn't respond with questions. I have found from personal experience that it usually leads to head-butting rather than a productive discussion. I find it best to simply explain your arguments and respond to counterarguments.
    That being said, I can respond to your question. Scientists think that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs. But if that was what you meant, then you should be more specific- because your post clearly refers to "earliest found dinosaurs" in general, and dinosaurs in general existed long before eumaniraptora (which scientists consider theropod dinosaurs anyway).

    If you could edit your post to be precise in stating your point, then there is no problem and we can freely discuss whether the earliest found fossils imply a problem with the proposed phylogeny.

  5. How should I refine the post?
    Did birds evolve from theropods? coelurosaurs? maniraptors?

    1. Looks like the posting system deleted my response- let me try again.

      You should not "refine" your post, but rather correct it to clearly specify your point. Your point cannot be that eumaniraptora existed before dinosaurs in general because we saw that is wrong. If your point was that they existed before theropod dinosaurs, then change it to "earliest found theropod dinosaurs". If it was that they existed before coelurosaur dinosaurs (which makes more sense now that I think of it, since your diagram refers to coelurosauria), then change your post to say "earliest found coelurosaur dinosaurs". Either way it is your point and you should specify it:
      If it was about dinosaurs in general, then it was wrong and you should correct it.
      If it was about a specific group of dinosaurs, then you should specify that group, to avoid confusion and also to facilitate the verification of your claim.

  6. The dino to bird enthusiasts claim that birds evolved from maniraptors. I will change the post to reflect that.
    We can see from the chart that birds existed at the same time as the earliest found maniraptors.

  7. You still have not changed the title of the post, so the confusion remains. Either way, if you were referring to maniraptors, then there really is no issue: Eumaniraptora are a group within maniraptors. The fact that they existed as early as the earliest found maniraptor dinosaurs (although the wikipedia page does show a 4my difference, but that may not be significant) does not show they did not evolve from dinosaurs, as your post says. If anything, it shows they probably appeared early within the maniraptor clade.
    Now, if they existed before even the groups that led to maniraptors, that might be more significant (always assuming that we have a full and complete fossil record, which is extremely unlikely- but that is another story).

  8. You sound like you have not read very much on this blog. I have covered the subject you are talking about numerous times.
    But at least you acknowledge "The fact that they existed as early as the earliest found maniraptor dinosaurs".
    That is my point.
    That contradicts the dino to bird theory.

  9. I fail to see how.
    Since you are merely restating your claim, allow me to restate my point: Eumanirsptora existing since the earliest found maniraptors simply shows they probably evolved early within the maniraptor clade.
    How does that "contradict" that they evolved from dinosaurs (or that they are dinosaurs, for that matter)?
    On another point, bear in mind that we cannot expect that the fossil record we have found reflects a complete phylogeny with perfect timelines.

  10. If your refusal to address my objections is the result of me offending you in some way, then I apologize in advance. Perhaps I have misunderstood the intent, or the rules, of this blog: if your present goal is simply to present and expand on your theory, without engaging in long-winded discussions with dissenting posters, then I will respect that of course. I do have one small request; since my questions remain, can you provide a link to some of the posts where you have addressed them as you say? After that I will not trouble you further.

  11. I no longer waste time engaging in long-winded discussions with dissenting posters who have no interest in understanding this subject.
    Look at the chart. It is a chart that shows a claimed dino to bird evolution. Notice that paraves (eumaniraptor) creatures existed as early as the earliest dinosaurs found.
    If you do not acknowledge that, then you will continue to fail to understand what I am saying.

  12. For those following this (if anyone), notice the assumed "ghost lineages" in the chart. Those are the light red lines. For example ALL the lines earlier than the shown starting point of Eumaniraptor are assumed ghost lineages. All of them.
    This is just another way of saying what I have been pointing out:
    Paraves (Eumaniraptor) creatures existed as early as the earliest FOUND dinosaurs.
    The dino to bird theory depends ENTIRELY on these assumed ghost lineages. In other words, the dino to bird theory is believed, not on the basis of the fossil evidence, but in spite of the fossil evidence.